Yes, John, I was thinking along the same lines. Since Hoatson and my father were in the same 12 glider squadron, it would be reasonable to look for them it the same general area, although I realize there is nothing certain about that. It would be interesting to see an enhanced image of what I think is likely the Hoatson crash location. Charles
Finally found it; I went to their FAQ page here and followed the link to the 'image order form' at this address: http://ncap-sales.rcahms.gov.uk/shop/image_sales/tara_sales_enquiry.php ...which is very similar to the order form you are brought to when you follow the 'buy' link underneath the preview window :dodgy: The only difference between the two forms seems to be the ability to choose the resolution as per the screenshot below: Why make things so complicated :huh: In any event, the application for a 1600dpi license has been lodged. Regards, Pat
Hi All, NCAP's ordering process has now accepted my application for a 1600dpi license and the prescribed fee has been paid over. Hopefully, the download link should have arrived via email by this time next week. I was looking again last night at the footage of the crash site on this YouTube link and I note there is a scene which shows a GI with his hands clasped behind his back looking into wreckage of a Horsa glider. I think we are seeing part of the port side wing root with what was the leading edge to the left. See screenshot below: Is the gap in the road hedgerow one and the same as the one to the rear of the Hoatson wreckage? I have indicated the 'Hoatson Gap' with the red arrows below: I always assumed that with one scene following the other, it was the same location but now I think the 'Hoatson Gap' is too wide for the scene showing the GI with clasped hands. Are we perhaps looking at a cleared site for Horsa A or B? Anyone any thoughts? Regards, Pat
Hi Pat, In my opinion the video is just a compilation of many cut scenes to make a complete video on gliders. I noticed that in the Hoatson segment around 2:21 there was no bright sunlight, but then at 2:25 the one GI with his hands behind his back in in some bright sun because of the shadows cast. also at 2:32 we see the Edna glider and then at 2:42 even a British glider. I do think though the "Hoatson Gap" is worth studying because of the trees along the north side of the D17 road that may match up. They would be in the field you had marked with the words "Gate C" right near where the arrow head from your mark of D17 (east) is. I think these trees are important and may help in identifying the wreck. Take a look again at some of the frames from the road and see what you think. John
Hi John, Yes, it looks like two different crash sites. Below is an extract from IGN cover flown in 1947: It looks like there might be two ash trees on the north side of the road to fit those seen in the ground footage/stills behind the wreckage. I am not so sure though about seeing the tall elms on the southern hedgerow. If you look at the shadows being cast by the few remaining tall elms of the 'island' on the avenue, I see no compatible shadows being cast by the southern road hedgerow. This could be though because of the two different angles of view. There is also limited potential in comparing the site in 1944 and three years later in 1947. The winters of 1945 - 50 were some of the coldest on record and combined with post war fuel shortages, I would expect many of the trees we see in 1944 images would have been felled by 1947. Nonetheless, I still think you have a very good candidate John at this location. Regards, Pat
Nice video, Pat; much crisper than I remember on the familiar glider wreck sequences. Those two 5-6" diameter holes on the new clip look like the flap cable passageways on Image #127 here: http://www.assaultglidertrust.co.uk/content/gallery/Horsa_Plans.html That road runs very close to dead N-S. The sun is very high - and that only happens once a day - noon. So we are looking east. The trees in the far background - let's assume it's a hedgerow - seems to intersect at a slightly acute angle (making it run slightly SE-NW if you accept my shadow analysis). I would love for this new Horsa to be Keokuk Chalk #3 - but I doubt the low (or non-existant) earth mound there matches Chalk #3's resting place. Kevin, is the mound there too high for it to be this clip? Anyway, my reading of the conditions - other than the mound height - fits the tentative Chalk #3 spot well: N-S road with utility lines on east side, HR intersecting at a small acute angle from the east. Isn't the short clip at 1:55 a different Horsa with similar damage? Definitely not as sunny. I haven't started looking for other locations yet. Not that many N-S roads in that region, so maybe I can pull a Pat.
Don, I agree (unfortunately) that the Horsa location in the linked YouTube video at 2+25 is not a match with our favored Keokuk Chalk #3 site. The hedgerow mound is too low and the trees in the background are too close in comparison to photos taken during my 2012 site visit. I’ll send you supporting photos off Forum. Maybe one day… R/Kevin
While waiting for the enhanced version of NCAP 4108/1002, I have continued to look closely at the versions that we have now, including the "flipped" image that Pat recently posted. I don't know if I am seeing correctly, but doesn't it look like there is another crashed glider, possible a Horsa, in this frame? What I am referring to is located just across the D17 from the "B" glider and a bit to the right. It appears to be fairly crumpled-up and against a tree. This item shows up well in the "flipped" version of frame 1002. It can also be seen at the very bottom of frame 1003, which may give a slight better contrast perhaps because of a little less glare due to less light. Anyway, hopefully it will become more clear just what this is with the enhanced frame 1002. Charles
Hi Charles and Don I have seen what you are talking about and it is a wrecked glider. I do hope it becomes clearer in the high resolution image when it arrives. I also want to point out to you and Don that when 1002 arrives, there is yet another glider that is wrecked in the aerial. For those who have seen the entire frame, or seen it on NCAP, it is on the other road (D115) just off and east of the road and due east from the 8 Horsas in the larger field. It could be a match for the very same Horsa we saw in the Youtube link with the still image Pat captured previously. ... something else to explore! John
Hi, John - Thanks for pointing out the other glider. I had seen it sometime back and completely forgot about it. You have probably already done so, but if not, look at frame 1001. That glider shows up there remarkably more clearly. Charles
Hi Charles, I agree the glider does show up better in frame 1001... Did you also notice yet another Horsa just west of the Le Buts farm complex and south of the road. That one appears to have had its port wing torn off before running under the canopy of another tree. It is visable in frame 1002, but is seen more clearly in frame 1001. There is even yet another one south of this location, very near the plowed fields you can see the camouflaged pattern on the Horsa. These are many of the possibilities for your fathers Horsa. John
Hi Guys, No download link as of 7:00pm this Friday evening...:-/ Hopefully Monday...if they work on St Patrick's Day up there in that heathen country Regards, Pat
Hi All, The high resolution copy of NCAP_ACIU_US30_4108_1002 has finally arrived and I must say it is very impressive. I am now at my 80% certainty threshold that John has found the Hoatson glider site. Below is a down sized version from the original 237MB TIF original (now available in the 'Green Room' library): Image Credit: RCAHMS/www.aerial.rcahms.gov.uk The red rectangle is zoomed to below: Image Credit: RCAHMS/www.aerial.rcahms.gov.uk There are, in my view, several very good ties to the ground footage stills and photograph. Below are those which I consider to be the most compelling: Well done John Regards, Pat
Hi All, I recently discovered that its well worth viewing the British Movietone footage held by AP. Quite a lot is duplicates of that held by British Pathe - but there are little nuggets of gold dust in the form of extra, unedited seconds in this source archive Here is a case in point: 'Consolidating In Normandy - NO SOUND' (Story No.: BM44914-2). We are by now familiar with the 'Hoatson' Horsa footage and thanks to John's persistence, we also now know the location to be the entrance onto the La Londe Farm avenue off the D17 road. The scene below is from the AP version with a couple of seconds of new footage showing GIs clearing what appears to be the remains of a burn site: The nose of the 'Hoatson' appears between the two GIs at right and the rubber dingy is between the 2nd and 3rd guy from right. The view is west on the D17. So what is burning? I had a look at our high resolution copy of NCAP_ACIU_US30_4108_1002 flown on the 8th June and I think it can only be the Horsa wreck to the east of 'Hoatson' as indicated in the extract below: Image Credit: RCAHMS/www.ncap.org.uk It looks like they set the glider alight in order to clear the road! What do you guys think? Regards, Pat
On my list of areas to visit whilst in Normandy for the D-Day commemorations was La Londe and the site of the Hoatson Horsa.
Hi all, While on the Fold 3 site yesterday, I ran across what was identified as a Missing Air Crew Report involving 2nd Lt. Vincent P. Boyer. Boyer was the other pilot on the Hoatson Horsa that is the subject of this thread. The report describes Boyer's CG-4A crash landing during the Market mission, in which he was killed. The report follows: I post this report here as I am not aware of a more appropriate thread. 1st Lt. Richard B. Libbey, who certified Boyer's death, was also on the Elmira mission as a pilot of one of the 12 Horsas of the 82nd TCS. According to the June 44 history of that squadron, his name is spelled as I have shown. Charles Edited by Pat to reduce image width to 850 pixels
Neil & Charles, Thanks guys for keeping the thread updated. Great bit of PS work there Neil! Charles, Fold3 are amassing quite a collection of documents; great find with this MACR. I see they have now begun digitizing First World War Medal Cards for British forces. Regards, Pat
Pat, I have just been digging a bit into all that was posted here. Reason......new leads for identification on 'Glider B'. A few things I did notice. The house/building near 'Glider B' is gone. Nothing there on Google Earth images. The 1944 aerial shows vehicles parked a little distance from 'Glider B'. At that same point, is looks like the Hoaston glider is on the side of the road. Would the Hoaston glider hve been lined up along the road all the time after landing? As opsoed to the other two glider that clearly block the road. The AP image, I am pretty sure it shows the burning of 'Glider B'.