Thanks Rob, It will be interesting to see how this thread developers over time and if it can be linked in with the SRY work. Regards, Pat
In looking into the Battle for St. Pierre (9th-10th June 1944) and the attack on Cristot (10th June) (apparently a flop ) in which the 24th Lancers were involved, I was surprised to see that it got still worse with then what looked like the 12th June actually being referred to as probably the worst day experienced by the 24th Lancers I guess in attacking the village of Marcel and the high ground near Tilly-sur-Seulles. I also noticed but what looks like a second battle of Cristot (16th June)... So on the 16th June: The attack from Le Haut d'Audrieu took place on a 500 yard wide front, with two companies up and the other two in reserve. 'A' and 'B' Companies led the attack, which kicked off at noon, with support from the 24L tanks. One tank troop supported each forward infantry company, with the third tank troop behind. The infantry followed the creeping barrage and first encountered resistance about 500 yards from Cristot. The KOYLI fought their way into the village and found it a shambles. Opposing them were about 400 infantrymen of the 26th SS Panzergrenadier Regiment, 12th SS Panzer Division. The German infantry had plenty of support from MGs and mortars, plus some self-propelled guns, a handful of panzers, and the “armored cars” (actually reconnaissance halftracks with 20mm guns) of 2nd Company, 12th SS Panzer Recon Group. By nightfall, Cristot had been captured; it was the KOYLI Battalion's first major victory in the campaign. The cost had been high — 66 dead in five days of fighting. The battalion managed to exploit as far as Le Hamel (south of Cristot). They were relieved the following morning by the 7th Duke of Wellington’s. However the above looks like a "fanciful" scenario as the Germans appear to have largely chosen to withdraw from Cristot at this stage rather than right to the death to contest for it. Reports suggest that after the attack went in and was met with mortar fire around 15 Germans were found to have been killed in action / left dead within. Including one assumes (?) the German spotter for their mortar fire who may have been using as a vantage point / observation post the steeple of the church nr. the centre of Cristot.
Managed to pull up the following quite detailed account of the 1st Battle of Cristot: http://www.creullyclub.freeuk.com/sept11.htm As well as this one, for a researched game scenario, for the 1st Battle of Cristot on the 11th June 2015 : http://www.fireandfury.com/scenarios/bloodhonourcristot.pdf
I suspect that this might be a 4/7th RDG tank, but I guess that there is a slight chance that it might just be a 24th L one: http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205205860 Unfortunately the caption there doesn't give much away, just: Sherman Crab flail tanks moving up through a village towards Tilly-sur-Seulles, 13 June 1944. The 24th L were near St.Pierre (across the Seulles from Tilly) where as the 4/7th were operating around Tilly, perhaps somewhere like Marcell or Buceels.
Well at least we got very clear turret markings and an unusual 8. May just be enough for an identification. But I've never studied British armor.
Yes, I think that something like 10 British land forces won Battle Honours for the Battle of Tilly-sur-Seulles, and a number of these had Sherman tanks deployed there. I've tried to get an idea of the full "set" which might or might not (?) be: The County of London Yeomanry (???) The Dorset Regiment: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorset_Regiment#Battle_honours The Durham Light Infantry: https://www.forces-war-records.co.uk/units/248/durham-light-infantry/ The East Yorkshire Regiment (???): http://www.wikiwand.com/en/East_Yorkshire_Regiment The 5th RTR - Royal Tank Regiment (???) The 4/7th Royal Dragoon Guards The Gloucestershire Regiment (???): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gloucestershire_Regiment The Hertfordshire Yeomanry (???) The 24th Lancers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/24th_Lancers The Sherwood Rangers Yeomanry (SRY): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherwood_Rangers_Yeomanry#World_War_II I think the IWM even has some pictures of Royal Marines Sherman tanks in action around about (Bayeux / Tilly) there? The large "8" does look unusual though doesn't it. I'm not sure if this might even represent 8th Armoured in some way. I guess I'll have to think about it and look into it some more! Rm.
Hi Guys, I would take a closer look at the numbers ... enlarged it is actually "88" on the tank. John
Hi All, I think (after a crash course in British armour ) that this vehicle might be from 30th Armoured Brigade, 79th Armoured Division. The Brigade was made up of: Head Quarters Armoured Brigade [50] 22nd Dragoons [51] 1st Lothians and Border Horse Yeomanry [52] 2nd County of London Yeomanry (Westminster Dragoons) [53] Unfortunately the flail drum has been removed because it probably showed the TAC sign for one of the three units above as per these model photos showing the '53' of the 2nd County of London Yeomanry (Westminster Dragoons). Regards, Pat
Hi All, I came across British Pathe footage titled 'Invasion Scenes 1945' which shows a British flail Sherman here (BP Film No. 1994.03). Its location and date are tagged as "Probably Germany, 1945" but the location is undoubtedly Normandy in the summer of 1944 - in fact, IIRC, some British armour guys have the location on one of the other forums. Anyway, the turret numbering style is identical as far as I can see, and if I am not mistaken, I think the insignia of the 79th Armoured Division is on the flail drive shaft universal joint cover below the guy's feet (circled white below): What do you guys think? Regards, Pat
I don't know if anyone has seen "Stephane Jacquet's book Tilly-sur-Seulles 1944 (published by Heimdal) " ? But apparently there is some detail even down to where some "specific" tanks were in there. http://www.amazon.com/Tilly-sur-Seulles-7-26-JUNE/dp/2840482606 Might be one to take a look at in a library first, as it's not in the category "bargain cheap"! But I guess that you might just get what you pay for there!? Of those above I think 2nd County of London Yeomanry (Westminster Dragoons) [53] perhaps is most likely (as a pure speculative guess/shot in the dark!) at the mo. though. Rm.
Hi Rob, I was reading somewhere last night that these 'crabs' operated in Troops of five tanks; three would sweep forward in a single 24ft wide swart while the other two gave covering fire from the rear. The drums could be raised by two hydraulic rams for travelling on roads, so I wonder why the IWM photo shows the whole drum removed? If we could figure out the numbering system, it might help to ID the regiment. Regards, Pat
This is a source I have found helpful in this area: http://www.scribd.com/doc/76337299/British-Tank-Markings-and-Names-1914-1945#scribd It has a good bit of info on different regiments but some of it is of a tantalising nature as it only has so much space to devote to each. It's a nice book though, as can be seen from the bit that's available in preview, with some especially nice pics in there, but it is an "old" one. I think it's orig pub date was something like 1978??! Rm.
Hello Pat In my opinion it would have to be from a 79th Armoured Division unit as that is the only one operating the specialised armour. They never fought as a conventional British armoured division, but were their units were put in place where required. Now all we have to do is identify which one - which I am working on - the Haynes D-Day Operations manual, in a good article about the flail, states that the 30th Armoured Brigade of 79th Armoured Division had three flail units, The Westminster Dragoons, the 22nd Dragoons and the 1st Lothian and Border Horse, so we are working in the right direction, but I still haven't been able to identify "88" yet!! The IWM link showing the Sherman flail "88" gives lots of fascinating photos of the British Army in operation, so I am working through them as well. regards Allan
Hi Allan, Have you seen posts #28 and #29 on the previous page? I think the flail marked '87' in the BP film is probably from the same Troop as '88' - possibly one of the tanks we see in the background IWM photo? Still not sure though that I am seeing the insignia of the 79th Armoured Division in the white circle :huh: Anyone able to confirm? Thanks, Pat
Further to the Crab No. '87' in the British Pathe Film 1994.03... I see Michael Sabarly and Michael Kenny have done extensive work on that location in this Missing-Lynx thread. They state the location as being Athis, just upstream of Caen on the River Orne. Regards, Pat
Hello Pat Thanks for the updates - they can only be from the 30th Armoured Brigade of the 79th Armoured Division as that was the specialised flail brigade of 79th Armoured. I have been digging in to my archive (big box in the garage ) and found my copies of "British and Commonwealth Armoured Formations (1919-46)" from 1971, which has a photo of a 1st Lothians flail coming ashore at Walcheren, but, unfortunately, the turret number is not visible!! That style of turret number is also used by Sherman DD's, in this case 50, of 13th/18th Royal Hussars of 27th Armoured Brigade, also in 79th AD, but ours are flails!! However, fortunately, a photo of a 1st Lothians Flail appears in "D-day Tank Battles - beachhead to breakout", from 1984, showing 54 on the turret. So we are still back on the drawing board with this one as we appear to have two regiments, in different brigades in the same division, using the same style and number range! regards Allan [hr] More information: http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205205836 A disabled Sherman Crab flail tank (turret number '94') of 22nd Dragoons, 79th Armoured Division, lies abandoned on Queen White beach, Sword area, 7 June 1944. So are we getting close, and it is 22nd Dragoons ? http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205205827 A Sherman Crab flail tank of the Westminster Dragoons, 79th Armoured Division, disabled on the beach, Gold area, 7 June 1944. I cannot read any turret number on this one. http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205206478 Sherman Crab flail tanks of the Westminster Dragoons carrying infantry of 2nd Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders during the advance east of Beringe, 22 November 1944. Again, I cannot read any turret number on this one. regards Allan
Does anyone know about the facilities at Hervieu nr. Chouain - where apparently the 24th L spend a lot of their "rest" time during their stays away from Point 103 and St.Pierre during June 1944? Some people I've been discussing this with think that Hervieu rather than just being the small village opposite Chouain over the Seulles nr. the railway (Caen to Bayeux) - but might actually be a half built large complex of railway building and sidings that are on some 1946 maps between Chouain/Herviue and Audrieu (but nothing there now but fields). The sidings idea actually makes some sense, as Hervieu by the Seulles actually seems quite a wet place to regularly drive to and park tanks. Where as the Herviue as railway siding ideas makes good sense as the shop facilities for machinery maintenance / electrics etc. welding facilities too would presumably be there. It's just amazing how much there is to see on the 1946 picture of this area: http://ww2talk.com/forums/gallery/image/28209-a-siding-or-depot-of-sorts-nr-hervieu-and-audrieu/ Compared to just the empty fields there is there now. All the best, Rm.
Hi Pat, Sean, Alan, Back around D-day + 1 the 24th L headed straight from Gold Beach for Bazenville and then Martragny and both of these later became ideal spots for some airfield development. For a map of the allies post D-day airfields in Normandy: http://www3.sympatico.ca/angels_eight/normalg.jpg & http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Landing_Ground#Royal_Air_Force_ALGs For the Royal Air Force ALGs I'm wondering now if seizing these "wide open" fields with a will was all part of some plan - or was it all some lucky chance that both spots seemed to fit - by some kind of a "fluke" the criteria to a tee? Is that what the 24th L were actually up to (maybe?) in those early days? i.e. perhaps focusing on securing some prime sites for some close air support? It seems interesting to me too that an airfield was developed as well near the 24th L captured village (16th June) of Cristot? I like coincidences, but as they say in "Casino" 3 in a row??? http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0112641/quotes "Ace Rothstein: Four reels, sevens across on three $15,000 jackpots. Do you have any idea what the odds are?" ... :huh:
Bazenville and Martragny were pre-planned, as were many others - as per the piece that I put in to British at Falaise - but naturally the Germans shelled the nearest ones to their front lines, which initially meant most were probably shelled I should think as the bridgehead was quite small in terms of what was packed in to it - and of course that is why they wanted to break out so that they had better territory for forward airstrips planned, and why the Germans tried to stop them i.e. hanging on to Caen/Carpiquet for example. Bazenville was extensively used for casevac - very brave nurses on the Dakota's as they had no protection from displaying a red cross, it was just a normal invasion striped Dak, that could be shot down if it met the opposition - they bought in supplies and personnel from the UK, and took out the sick and wounded. I have a load table for one coming in to B.11 with 125 Wing personnel, showing the names and weights of all, and naming the nurse, and her weight as well. Allan
Thanks Allan, Bazenville / Brazenville (Sean et. al. any idea which is best??? - Bazenvile I think is "French" - Brazenville perhaps the version the allies often used???) I've seen in the IWM you have to be pretty "careful" which search terms you use as slight differences can get all sorts of different results. Quote: "...and her weight as well." What about the 100 year rule and official secrets and all that.... :blush: