Hello all, While looking through No Better Place To Die (Subtitled The Battle for La Fiere Bridge), by Robert M. Murphy the other day, I ran across a photo of a crashed Horsa, which crash I am guessing occurred near Chef-du-Pont on D-Day. I say this because the photo appears in the book just after a short chapter entitled "The Battle of Chef-du-Pont". However, the glider's location is not indicated in that write-up. I'm not sure if this glider has already been identified, so am just putting here what I have found. First, the photo from No Better Place To Die, by Robert M. Murphy, Copywrite 1970, Casemate Publishers, Drexel Hill, PA., reproduced by permission of Casemate Publishers: [img=850x638]http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h123/ddayhorsa/Horsa%20at%20Chef%20Du%20Pont_zpssukpvdsw.jpg[/img] The picture here is not as clear as it is in the book, but there are several things I can say about it. Clearly, the chalk number is 35. There is writing on the side of the cockpit which is partially legible in the book photo, with the aid of a magnifying glass. Starting at the front of the cockpit, on the far left of the photo, the first marking is not legible. However, following this are pretty clearly the letters TC. The next group of characters are not legible. To the right of them, however, after the blank space, is the number 8. I can't read what follows that. It appears that this glider had a pretty rough landing, although it is possible that some of the pictured damage occurred after the landing. The condition of the glider as seen, due to its damage, may be of help in identifying its location in an NCAP image. It is clear in the book photo that the portion of the fuselage section, which is still attached to the port wing, is projecting upwards at about 30 degrees, well up off of the ground. I also note that we cannot see the starboard wing, unless it is the white mass that is seen when looking through the glider just forward of the 35 chalk number. The tail is clearly separated from the fuselage and is close to being directly behind it. Looking at the Chef-du-Pont area, the following image was located: NCAP US30/4108 1016: The only Horsa glider in the image is on the far right-center. It is zoomed in below: [img=850x672]http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h123/ddayhorsa/Chef%20Du%20Pont%20glider%20zoomed_zpsrh3dsruh.jpg[/img] Looking carefully, I think I can just about convince myself that the fuselage I see attached to the port wing is uplifted. Also, the starboard wing, which must be on the ground, is perhaps what is seen when looking through the glider at the point just forward of the chalk number 35. I also note that the tail section is separated and behind the fuselage, as in the book photo. As for the precise location of this glider, the GE view of the area of NCAP US30/4108 1016 follows: This view is rotated somewhat to the Northeast just to line it up with the orientation of the NCAP image. Note the only building in this GE shot, near the top of the image. I am assuming that this is the same building as seen in the first NCAP frame above. Here is a zoomed in version of the NCAP image of the building: This image can be zoomed one more step, but it then cuts the glider out of the view. In any event, I think the building is the same one in both the GE shot and the NCAP images. Finally, one more GE view of the area of interest with the L shaped bldg. identified with a red oval, and the approximated spot of the glider landing identified with the yellow blast icon: Not completely sure that the location of the Horsa in Murphy's book is where I am thinking it may be; but there does seem to be some evidence leading to that possibility. If anyone has any different ideas, or further thoughts on this glider, I would be glad to hear them. Have a great day, Charles Edited by Pat to reduce top two images to 850 pixels wide.
Hello Charles, Looks good. The hedgerow in the background of your first photo looks to be several trees deep (now gone), rather than one row, which would match the aerial photo. Is this more apparent in the book photo? Cheers, Sean
Hi Charles, Very nice work! I think somewhere (I thought it was in a thread somewhere) there are two different photos of some GI's sitting on the broken off Starboard wing of this same #35 horsa glider. I also recall a horsa wheel in the forground of the photos. I don't think we were able to find the location though. Pat, maybe you recall the photos? John
Hi all, No, Sean, the posted photo above is pretty much what I see in the book copy; they both suggest a hedgerow with a depth of trees, rather than one row. I would also note that the NCAP image that John used in his very useful glider map, presents an even more clear image of the glider crash scene, including the hedgerow trees. That image, NCAP US30/4108 1014, is here: And zooming in on the subject: [img=850x634]http://i63.photobucket.com/albums/h123/ddayhorsa/US30%204108%201014%20z_zpsga2kupb7.jpg[/img] The hedgerow trees are seen more clearly, and the uplifted section of the glider is still evident. Better lighting in this image for whatever reason. John, guess I should have checked your map first. Also, in the book photo, the shape of the tops of some of the trees behind the glider cockpit seem to be familiar. Does anyone recall seeing them before? Charles Edited by Pat to reduce bottom image to 850 pixels wide.
Hi Charles, I think that is the first known instance where someone used the glider map and it helped. Makes me glad I put an NCAP aerial information into the description. John
Excellent candidate Charles After a bit of digging on my hard drive, I found the images from the time we last looked at this glider and I note from the date the files were created (August 2012) that the thread we used to discuss them must have been one of the last on the old Battlebus Forum before the server crash. OK, here they are: The image below from Michel de Trez's 'Sainte Mere Eglise' was pointed out by John: I have a high resolution version of the photo from somewhere and the zoomed extract below seems to read "Texas Kid": The twin photos of Sgt Lebenson and his friend are from page 93 of Philippe Esvelin's 'D-Day Gliders' Can't recall if we finally concluded that all photos showed the same glider. How do you guys think they sit with Charles's location? Regards, Pat
Hi Pat, I knew I could count on you to find those photos!!! Amazing that they were from that long ago. I realy like Charles location for the horsa. Everything seems to fit quite well. John
Hi Pat, Thanks for pulling up those additional images from a good while back. That was one well photographed glider! I wonder how it ended up so damaged. From what I see, it landed in a field and likely had no contact with trees, etc on the way down. I guess any number of scenarios could be conjured up to get it to the condition we see, including damage done after the landing. Sorry about the oversized photos. I determined that when I resized them myself on Photobucket, in some cases I forgot to check the little box that says "Replace Original", resulting in two images in my bucket. Later, when I selected one to include in the post, I grabbed the original one by mistake. Everyone have a great rest of the weekend. Charles
Hi Guys, Sgt Len Lebenson, attached to G3, 82nd Airborne Division, had been on a quest with the other guy in the lower photo, Private Harold P. Wilelm, to find the Waco glider he came in on as part of Mission 'Detroit'. According to Philippe Esvelin, Lebenson Note the location of La Couture Farm, the divisional CP, at upper left on NCAP US30/4108 1014 and the pathway leading from the farmhouse, passing the glider location down to the D15, obviously used as a shortcut into Sainte Mere Eglise. Regards, Pat
Hi All, In my opinion based on viewing the aerial photo US30/4108 1014, I believe the horsa game in from the southwest and clipped a taller tree, which caused the starboard wing to break but that the wing remained attached to the horsa. I think the broken starboard wing caused the horsa to lose starboard lift and bank hard in decent to the right, causing it to land hard on the starboard side as the horsa began to turn to the right (or clockwise) almost a full 180 degrees. This opinion is based on the debris in the field to the southwest of the horsa. Some debris fields flair out from point of impact when ejected, but this seems more like a loss of contents on impact. Also that the glider is bent in a curved shape to the right from the cockpit on back, and there is the heavier damage to the starboard side of the cockpit. Also the ground photo that shows the broken landing gear wheel indicates a likely harder landing to the starboard side. The port wheel is still visible in Charles' photo. Just my opinion, and a little bit of crash investigtion background. John
Ok John, Your theory on the nature of the crash of chalk #35 sounds pretty reasonable to me. Thanks for using your experience to come up with a logical explanation for what must have been a jarring landing. On a slightly different matter, I'm sure you read Pat's reference to Philippe Esvelin's account above, about Sgt. Lebenson's unsuccessful attempt to find the Waco glider on which he was a passenger, and which crashed, apparently somewhere in the general vicinity of the chalk #35 Horsa. Below is a copy of a photo from page 92 of D-Day Gliders by Philippe Esvelin, showing the wreckage of the Waco in which Sgt. Lebenson flew: According to Esvelin's account, the pilot of this glider saw that he was about to hit a house and took evasive action to miss it, but was unable to avoid hitting a barn. The above photo shows some kind of wooden structure that the glider may have struck. What I am trying to determine is if this glider is located on your American Glider Landing Sites (June 6th - June 7th 1944). According to the caption in Esvelin's above referenced book, the "glider landed less than a mile to the west of Sainte-Mere-Eglise." I don't know if it was photographed from the air at all, or perhaps is just too hidden to identify. Charles
Hi Charles, There are not very many farmhouses on LZ 'O' and we can safely rule out La Couture - it being the designated 82nd CP and the location Sgt Lebenson traveled across the fields to. One location I would wonder about is a small house or hut in an old orchard adjoining Les Noires Terres Farm. The modern day IGN mapping shows the location: The Bing Maps extract below shows the building partially visible under the canopy of a large tree. We are looking for a length of hedgerow following the line-of-sight through what looks to be a corner gap into the next field - perhaps like the one indicated by the yellow arrow: I get a sense that the hedgerow in the far field runs back towards the camera position but behind the wooden house/hut, so my arrow is attempting to show a slight offset from the line of the extended hedgerow. There is digitised NCAP cover in the form of NCAP_ACIU_US30_4108_1056 flown on the 7th June showing the orchard and house/hut: Image Credit: RCAHMS/www.ncap.org.uk Just my thoughts Charles and there may well be better candidates on the LZ. Regards, Pat
Hi Pat, Thanks for the thoughts and back-up images. Looking at the Esvelin photo, I wasn't sure whether the view through the corner gap was a path, field or something else. Considering the general area in question, seeing into an adjacent field is probably a good bet. I'll keep poking around in the LZ. Just wish we could have gotten a glimpse of a glider in that NCAP image. Charles
Hi Charles, Frame 1056 is not high resolution as it is presented on the NCAP site, so perhaps there is something more to be seen beyond what is discernible on the extract I posted above. BTW, your Horsa is caught on footage in the Photosnormandie film #f000157. Not very clear I'll grant you, but nonetheless a new angle. I extracted a still below: Regards, Pat
Good morning Pat, (my time) I looked at the Photosnormandie film. You really had to be quick to recognize and grab that shot. How long does the scene last; about a second? Blurred, but a different angle nevertheless. Also, what would it take to get a high resolution copy of 1056? I would be glad to pay whatever charge there is to increase our collection of such images, even if it doesn't reveal the crashed Waco. Charles
Hi Charles, Many thanks for your kind offer to purchase a high resolution NCAP frame. It is appreciated by all the 'Researcher' team. However, my hunch does not hold enough promise for the location of Sgt Lebenson's Waco to warrant the cost of a high resolution version of frame 1056 - far better to consider a purchase of frame 1014 or 1015 in order to confirm your Horsa #35. Personally, I would go for 1014 as there are more gliders covered and La Couture Farm is still in view. Your candidate for Horsa #35 is also far enough away from the edge of the frame so as to not suffer from edge fall off in clarity. As to the actual process of ordering, we have a thread opened on the subject - see 'How to Order a NCAP Reconnaissance Photograph' Have a read and let me know if there are any parts of the 'How to' which require clarification. Sortie US30/4108, flown on the 8th June (not the 7th as I stated in error above), is one of the best available in the NCAP archive - no deep shadows and almost no cloud cover. BTW, with that white 'tick' at the twelve o'clock position above the '35', I would be surprised if this Horsa is not from one of the three serials of the big 82nd lift - Mission Elmira - on the evening of the 6th June. I have never been able to ascertain the meaning of the white 'ticks' (some are at the six o'clock position) but I have a strong suspicion they were used to differentiate some features pertinent to a large glider mission. Regards, Pat
Ok Pat, I'll go with the US30/4108 1014 image for now. I would think it should show good detail. Couple questions: DPI 1200? I take it that you think this is the best option for the $. In the License section, the form inquires as to whom the license is "in favor of". The entry is optional, but I'm not sure if any entry should be made. As for the intended use of the photo, what should be stated? In your explanation of the process, the actual image of the form does not show up in your post for some reason. Sorry for the confusion; I guess the first time is the most difficult. Charles
Hi Charles, I agree with Pat that I don't believe the Les Noires Terres Farm is the location for the Waco. So I would hold off on purchasing frame 1056. I traced an outline of a waco from frame 1056 for scale, and superimposed it into that area and I think just on the scale of the waco and what would or should be visible, I can't find anything supporting the waco there. Not even a real hint or sign of any wreckage. In the ground photo of the Waco, I wonder if what is pictured is more like a small shack (or outhouse?) It seems like the waco may have come down in an apple orchard though in a scenario very much like the back of the Les Noires Terres Farm. What I am not familiar with is would french farmers have such a structure well away from the house for orchard tools or other purposes? I wonder if we try to locate this waco pictured if we should not focus too much on a house, but more on an orchard? any thoughts? John
Hi Guys, First, Charles - apologies for the broken links in the opening post of the 'How to Order a NCAP Reconnaissance Photograph' thread. These are now corrected. To answer your questions: Absolutely Charles; there is no gain in going above 1200dpi. Your TIFF file will be created from a scan of a master paper print (not a negative) and to my mind, there is no point in purchasing the quite a bit more expensive 1600 dpi version. Just leave blank Charles - I have never filled in this field. Apologies again Charles - I insert something like what I have in the Additional Information field below: Replace the highlighted Forum thread address with the one for this thread which you can copy and paste from below: http://normandy.whitebeamimages.ie/forum/thread-351.html Hope this clarifies matters but let me know if you are still hitting problems. Regards, Pat