Thanks Guys, As a matter of interest, is it possible to tell which of the two weapons are being used in the three attacks? Regards, Pat
Hi Dale, I think the .303 machine guns were upgraded to 50 cals in some of the later Spitfire models to overcome the use of armour plate in the German planes. The Mark IX, which was the type being used by No. 411 Squadron in July '44, did have variants equipped with either two 20mm cannon and four .303 inch machine guns or two 20mm cannon and two .5 inch machine guns. Which variant of the Mark IX was been flown on the 17th July by Charlie Trainor I do not know. Regards, Pat
Thanks for the piece above Pat - and for sirjahn, this will explain about the .5 (or .50) Browning in Spitfires http://spitfiresite.com/2010/04/sorting-out-the-e-american-armament-for-the-spitfire-mk-ixxvi.html According to the 411 ORB Charles Trainor was flying MK423 which is an LFIX according to the Spitfire serials website http://www.airhistory.org.uk/spitfire/p063.html MK423 LFIX CBAF M66 8MU 12-2-44 331S FAAC 6-6-44 511FRU 8-6-44 411S 29-6-44 1S 7-7-44 AST 29-9-44 VAO 22-12-44 mods 317S 25-1-45 AST 25-2-45 MedAAF 5-4-45 SOC 2-8-45 and this is where it gets confusing/interesting. Several sources (John Rawlings "Fighter squadrons of the RAF" - "Jeff" Jeffords "RAF Squadrons" - for example) show 411 as operating the Spitfire IXb (or even IXB) until September '44, then changing to the Spitfire IXe (or even IXE), and my understanding is that Charles Trainor's MK423 was equipped with 2 x 20mm Hispano Mk II cannon and 4 x .303 Brownings, with the later in the year for 411 Spitfire IXe/IXE using the 2 x 20mm Hispano Mk II cannon and 2 x .50 Brownings (source 2TAF Vol 4 (Squadrons, Camouflage and Markings, Weapons and Tactics) Page 606/607 by Chris Shores/Chris Thomas. This link gives an explanation of the various wings utilised on the Spitfire http://spitfiresite.com/2010/04/spitfire-mk-ix-xi-and-xvi-variants-much-varied.html/3 LF refers to the slightly later Spitfire IX model with a Merlin 66 engine that was tuned to switch to the second supercharger stage (the Merlin 60 series introduced a two stage supercharger) at higher altitudes. In the cockpit on the lower right side of the main panel there is a switch and a light that indicate which stage the supercharger is at (its automatically engaging). The red light will appear above 5000m or so. The reason for the LF modification was to match the Spitfire IX's top speed to be better than the captured FW190A at all altitudes. See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supermarine_Spitfire_(late_Merlin-powered_variants) - which is well written and states, amongst other things, "Production of the LF Mk IXs, frequently referred to as the Spitfire IXB....", so you can see why it is referred to as both, depending on which book/website you read! But as to what made the splash on the railings - I have no idea without knowing the size of said "splash" - but it appears to have been made by Charles Trainor! My understanding is that he would have been able to select .303 or both, so it depends on what orders were issued for various circumstances as they might still have to fight a competitive/combative aircraft after strafing a truck or truck convoy (referred to as MET (motorised enemy transport), so not a good idea to waste all of their 20mm - so probably a .303 splash!! regards Allan
Hi Folks, I like this railway embankment a lot!: <div id="mapviewer"><iframe id="map" scrolling="no" width="500" height="400" frameborder="0" src="http://www.bing.com/maps/embed/?v=2&cp=48.851188~-0.818504&lvl=17&sty=a&form=LMLTEW&emid=07217d9f-f43c-7c9c-1f8d-249a4a101dfa"></iframe><div id="LME_maplinks" style="line-height:20px;"><a id="LME_largerMap" href="http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=48.851188~-0.818504&lvl=17&sty=a&form=LMLTEW" target="_blank" style="margin:0 7px">View Larger Map</a><a id="LME_directions" href="http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=48.851188~-0.818504&lvl=17&sty=a&form=LMLTEW&rtp=%7Epos.48.85118818892385_-0.8185041804331261_Vaudry" target="_blank" style="margin:0 7px">Driving Directions</a></div></div> It's not perfect and needs more work but there are several good features that I have not seen at other possible locations. Its about 3 miles east of Vire on the Vire/Flers track. You can zoom out the live map above to see where you are (press F5 to reset). First the problems: Double track at location Location is 15 miles to the west of the stated 2nd patrol box While the track is a double at the location, it merges into a single line for a good portion of the distance between the two towns, so perhaps the double section is a post war addition. I am not sure if 15 miles outside the patrol box is a huge issue, ie 15 miles to the west of the Thury-Harcourt / Domfront patrol box boundary line. Vire was an important rail and road junction and may well have merited a flypast or at least a run up the track from Flers (which is in the patrol box). Now the good stuff: There is digitised NCAP cover showing the embankment in two frames from sortie US7GR/2806 flown on the 8th August 1944 - NCAP_ACIU_US7GR_2806_7058 and NCAP_ACIU_US7GR_2806_7059. Although these are both high altitude frames, they do show alternating light and dark toned field lines running perpendicular to the track which could well match the gun camera footage. I don't see the kick out in the foliage on the outside (north side) of the curve but that might be just the small scale of 1:58,000 in these frames. I also like the degree of curve on the track; it is, to me eye at least, a very good, possibly excellent, match for the curvature we see in the gun camera footage. BTW, you will only be able to zoom the two frames on the NCAP site if you have a paid account with them. Like I say, it needs more work, but I can say with some certainty that I have not, to date, come across a better candidate location over many hundreds of miles of Normandy railway track So, how might we progress matters? The first thing to do is to get a search done in the NCAP archive to see if there are any more, as yet un-digitised, frames from other sorties with cover of this location. If there is more cover, it will probably be at a more favourable scale as 1:58,000 is unusually small for these frames. I would limit the search window to June, July and August to make sure the tones of the crops do not change from those we see in the footage as a lot hangs on being able to match these field lines and tones to any further cover found. Regards, Pat
Shoot! It's not the right embankment :blush: I searched Dale's link to the Canadian LMH Archive in his 'Canadian Aerial Photo Source' thread where Phil had such success tracking down their un-locatables. In Box 0110 1 of 2 I found frame 3107 from sortie 614 flown by the Canadian No. 400 Squadron on the 1st August 1944. The frame has north at the bottom and shows the embankment as being the lowest section of the curved track in the upper part of the frame. Below is an extract from frame 3107 flipped to show north at top: The extract above fits into the yellow rectangle in the Bing Maps screenshot below, with the town of Vire showing at left: The hoped for 'kick' in the foliage on the outside (north side) of the curve is not present and the field lines, although perpendicular to the track, are actually fully fledged hedgerows which are not present in the gun camera footage. Back to the drawing board :s Regards, Pat
Hi All, No luck yet on the two outstanding gun camera locations. I came across another story in Major General Richard Rohmer's book 'Patton's Gap' in which he flew an armed recce Mustang 1 on a 'photo shoot' to Dieppe harbour on the 24th April 1944. He was a pilot with No. 430 Squadron RCAF at the time. The sortie number for this mission is 430/R.26 MG Rohmer, then F/O Rohmer, was tasked with taking photographs of a dive bombing mission with the intention of sinking two freighters then known to be in the harbour. The intention was to make a bit of PR (Public Relations) exercise of the event, and consequently the aircraft chosen for the attack on the two vessels were to be Canadian. Anyone see where this is leading? Yes, the honour was to fall to No. 411 Squadron RCAF and F/O Rohmer's Mustang inadvertently became the photo plane when the designated aircraft refused to start at RAF Tangmere. All twelve Spitfires from No. 411 were tasked in for the mission. The whole Squadron was to form up over the Channel in a tight configuration for the 'group shot'. This was the first part of F/O Rohmer's job on the day and was completed successfully. The second part of the recce pilot's mission was to photograph the two sinking vessels following the dive bombing attack. This part failed as only one frame was forthcoming which is reproduced on page 24 of 'Patton's Gap' There is no sign of the two ships nor of the intense flak which was put up as F/O Rohmer made his run flying parallel to the coast from east to west at 300 feet. What I am hoping is that: Charlie Trainor was on this mission 411's April ORB identifies his aircraft His aircraft was caught in F/O Rohmer's 'group shot' over the Channel Lastly, in some dark archive somewhere on the planet, a copy exists of the 'group shot' All F/O Rohmer's personal prints from his sorties were lost when the Dakota carrying some of the Squadron's equipment was shot down in the move from France to Belgium. Does anyone have 411's ORB for April 1944 or indeed know if a copy of the group shot exits? Thanks, Pat
Hello Pat Interesting update - and all from finding the book on e-bay - sorry, I don't hold a copy of the ORB, perhaps Charlie's family can help with it? Did they sink the ships? regards Allan
Hi Allan, Just got down the 540 and 541 from TNA. F/L Trainor was 'up' on the 6th (2x sorties), the 10th and 13th April only, so he therefore missed the 'photo shoot' The Form 540 (Summary of Events) for the 24th April reads: The Form 541 (Record of Events) for the 24th April reads: Although F/L Trainor was not on the operation to Dieppe on the 24th, his usual aircraft at this time, MJ 125, a LF 9 Spitfire was. It was piloted by F/L W.R. 'Gibbie' Gibson. Therefore, if the group shot ever turns up and we can figure out which letter was marked on MJ 125, we might still get to see Charlie Trainor's aircraft in flight! Below is the one and only photo from F/O Rohmer's camera run: The entry in No. 430's log (written up by F/O Rohmer himself) for the 24th April reads: In answer to your question Allan, none of the accounts from 411's ORB or indeed from MG Rohmer in the book actually say if the ships were sunk. I'll let you draw your own conclusion Regards, Pat
Hi Allan, The four recent additions to our ORB collection have now been added to the Green Room Library: No 411 Squadron RCAF - April 1944 (Forms 540 & 541) No 430 Squadron RCAF - July 1944 (Forms 540 & 541) Regards, Pat
Hi Folks, I was looking through the article titled 'The Battle of the Falaise Pocket' in Issue No. 8 of 'After The Battle' magazine and found this photograph at the top of page 25. The fountain rang a bell with me: ...and sure enough on reading the caption, it turns out to be Boissey: The only Lance Corporal Sweetman I could find in the 'Forces War Records' database was George William Sweetman, (1895867), who was killed in Norfolk clearing British mines from the coast on the 2nd February 1945. He was with 4 Bomb Disposal Coy, Royal Engineers. I cannot be sure though that he is the same man we see at the fountain in Boissey. Below is another old postcard showing the fountain around the turn of the Twentieth Century: The fountain as seen today here from roughly the same angle of view as the postcard, seems to have lost some of its former glory, though its probably not from battle damage if it was intact on the 20th August 1944. The fountain is just out of shot at lower left as F/L Trainor's gun camera footage opens. Regards, Pat
Greetings gentlemen, As I re-read this thread, I am still fascinated by what you have accomplished. Our mission to find Charlie's Church last winter occurred "almost overnight" and yet you continue to search "tracks and trees" associated with the other two strafing attacks on July 17, 1944. Thank you for your interest and dedication. Warm regards, Ellen; on behalf of the Trainor family.
Hi Ellen, We're like the Mounties - we never give up Currently checking post war IGN cover in an attempt to trace all the single track branch lines to the then numerous opencast quarries in the area. Almost all are now removed, in some instances to such an extent that there is no sign of the track bed at all. The barn at the T junction also continues to provide a challenge! I have stopped concentrating on the Calvary symbols as shown on current IGN mapping and instead gone back to checking the same post war IGN cover, mostly from 1947. Regards, Pat
Hi All, Still no luck with the remaining two gun camera locations but I did find an interesting and very useful page on the UK National Archives site titled 'Royal Air Force Combat Reports 1939-1945'. These Combat Reports are separate and distinct from Squadron Operations Record Books (ORBs) and include some material pertaining to other Allied units and even USAAF units based in the UK during WWII. I tried inputting 'Trainor' in the surname field and '1944' in the date field and came up with two hits for Charlie Trainor; one dated 28th June and the other 4th July. Haven't seen these two Combat Reports yet as I am at my work PC. Its hard to tell from the scrambled previewer exactly what they contain, however with the modest fee charged for these documents, this is not an issue. If anyone gets to them before me, I would appreciate a copy. Thanks, Pat
Thanks for keeping the story alive Pat - I believe we also used German PoW's on minefield clearance on the UK beaches. And after they had declared a beach clear they were formed up in a line and walked through their work - which concentrated the mind a bit I don't doubt, as you had to worry that your colleagues were as thorough as you!! regards Allan
Hi Allan, I was curious to see what these Combat Reports recorded so I downloaded a copy of the three pdf search results pertaining to Charlie Trainor last night. The first one held his CR for 28th - 30th June, 1st July (unreadable) and one patrol flown on the 4th July. The second pdf shows a CR for a later 'Armed Recce' on the 4th July and the third for two patrols flown on the 27th and 30th July when he was CO of 401 Squadron. The only 411 Combat Report for the 17th July is that of Squadron Leader Robertson which I am going to bring down tonight to see if we can find a fuller description of locations - I note from the ORB that Charlie returned from the first patrol at the same time, 17:10 as five other aircraft, including that of S/L Robertson, so perhaps all six were flying together over the same ground. The Combat Reports are extremely interesting reading but, to date I have only seen them recording aerial victories, not ground attacks. The level of detail regarding locations is sometimes quite good, with references including terms like '2 miles NE of Lisieux' being frequently used. Regards, Pat
Hi All, Perhaps a little progress; I have now downloaded Squadron Leader G. D. "Robbie" Robertson's Combat Report for the 16:00 patrol on the afternoon of 17th July. The document is reproduced below: This appears to place all the patrol aircraft in the vicinity of the German airfield at Triqueville, thereby giving us one more 'fix' on F/Lt Charlie Trainor beyond the one at Boissey. I am not sure of the exact location of the airfield, but I presume from looking at the USAAF strike photo below that it was on the flat, arable fields between the village and the hamlet of Le Mont les Mares: I am trying to figure out where S/Ldr Robertson's ME 109 crashed - anyone have a map or photo showing the (grass?) runway(s)? Thanks, Pat
Hello Pat I did a Google search as you had spelt it differently to S/Ldr Robertson, only to find that both spellings are acceptable. The link in this piece http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=9943 doesn't work, but it tells you more about what is left of the place. The Luftwaffe Archive and Records Reference Group has a link to Airfields Construction in Normandie... http://www.lwag.org/forums/showthread.php?t=3304 See also: http://acesofww2.com/Canada/aces/robertson.htm http://acesofww2.com/Canada/aces/trainor.htm Nice to see the mention of the "new gyro gun sight" - later combat reports had the use of the gyro gun sight up in the table above the GENERAL REPORT" More if I find it. regards Allan
Hi Allan, I cannot see your links just now from my work PC, but I did come across the spelling issue on one of the other forums a few nights back. Can you confirm that a RAF Combat Report was only filed in the event that a fighter pilot was claiming an aerial kill and not where a patrol involved the pilot attacking ground targets only? Such seems to be the case in the Combat Reports digitised in TNA, but I need to be sure. Thanks Allan, Pat