Hmmm the only Kriegslazarett in Rennes was 4.612 Kriegslazarett which was based out of the Hotel Dieu and to my knowledge only handled German wounded, with one exception. In my research it appears that Rennes Military Hospital setup in the former EPS Rennes building was run by the Medical Section of Frontstalag 221 based out of Bordeux not 4.612. I have compared the doctor roster of 4.612 and not seen any matches in names found at Rennes Military Hospital but I have a match with FS 221. I wonder if Armeearzt 7 just used a generic hospital term instead of being specific when giving his directions.
I think it is time to make sure what we are talking about. Maybe we should go back to the German designations. The list you have given on http://www.specialforcesroh.com/archive/index.php/t-42542.html is long and confusing: E.P.S Rennes, EPS Lazarett (Teillager), Rennes Military Hospital, Frontstalag 221 W, or Lazarett 133 So how many hospitals were there in Rennes? - one at/of the Stalag - one in the EPS Rennes Building (or are these two the same?) - Kriegslazarett
The reason the list is long is because different PWs called the same places different names and it appears the Germans did too. The former French caserne of Camp de la Marne in south-west Rennes was the place where the transiting PWs were sorted out. The layout of 133/221 is below. [IMG=850x564]http://i1182.photobucket.com/albums/x446/sirjahn/Stalag133sketch_zps02dd135e.png[/IMG] The first documents I find indicate it is called by the Germans as Lazarett 133 and held French Colonial PWs. Those same documents indicate that a hospital was set up in town in an old school, Ecole Sup. Premiere (I had the spelling at one time but have forgotten it now). This hospital was used initially to treat French and French Colonial PWs. I don't know what German organization had jurisdiction over it at this point. It was later used for British Indian PWs with tuberculosis and wounded from the St. Nazaire raid. The guys from the St. Nazaire raid called it Stalag 221 but they were in Rennes not Bordeaux where the real Frontstalag 221 was based. So I guess it fell under Frontstalag 221 jurisdiction at that point. The St. Nazaire wounded once healed were sent directly to Germany so they didn't use a transit camp. So in 1944 the locations of the German medical facilities were as noted in the following sketch. [IMG=850x638]http://i1182.photobucket.com/albums/x446/sirjahn/MedicalFacilitiesinRennes_zpsa610c330.jpg[/IMG] The British PWs made clear distinctions when they were in the hospital calling it EPS Rennes for the most part or in the Stalag calling it just the Stalag or Lazarette 133. American PWs were all over the map calling Lazarette 133 (not the hospital) Stalag 123, Stalag 221, Lazarette 133 and mixing it up with the Rennes Military Hospital (EPS Rennes to the British) naming it also Stalag 221 (my Father's letter from here had a return address of Frontstalag 221), Rennes EPS, EPS Rennes, EPS Lazarett (Teillager), Frontstalag 221 W. As seen in the Lazarette 133 sketch there was a doctor and medical building in there but there was only 1 German or 1 French Parolee doctor manning it. So it was more for sick call than real long term treatment. The Germans also took over St. Vincent's college to store medical supplies. The Germans also called the hospital EPS Rennes or EPS Lazarette (Teillager) and the stamp on documents from the hospital read Frontstalag 221 Aussenstelle
EPS Rennes or EPS Lazarett (Teillager) in documents I have seen but the document stamp reads Frontstalag 221 Aussenstelle.
Thanks, I'll start looking for information. So the 'Aussenstelle' part was used exclusively for the EPS location? To explain my confusion, I find it odd a POW camp was called Hospital (= Lazarett) 133 As an outsider I would expect all POW facilities in Rennes to be called Frontstalag 221. Lazarett 133 would then have been part of/subordinated to Frontstalag 221. I wonder if the Germans simply started because they needed a hospital (more than a POW camp) at that time, and called everything Lazarett 133. Then they realized this was odd and Frontstalag 221 took over responsibility and Lazarett 133 was reduced to just the medical facilities. This would explain why the mail addresses and stamps all read Frontstalag 221 (Aussenstelle). I can also imagine this confused prisoners especially when they came in through the EPS, which was mostly Lazarett 133 to them. Maybe there still were references to L-133 left in the camp itself too. If these assumptions are correct, I'd be tempted to call the POW locations in Rennes simply 'Frontstalag 221' and only add the Lazarett 133 part for the Aussenstelle: 'Frontstalag 221 Aussenstelle / Lazarett 133'. In case the Bordeaux link confuses things, adding 'Rennes' should do the trick. At least I think this is the best way to keep things simple, but without the documents it is difficult to say this is correct. I'll let you be the judge of that ;-) However if I understand you correctly: It looks like we have the 'clinic' at the camp itself without a name, but the camp was called Lazarett 133/Frontstalag 221 (at the same time?) The EPS location: Frontstalag 221 Aussenstelle (Aussenstelle means something like 'exterior location') And the German hospital: Kriegslazarett 4/612 [hr] More information on medical units at Rennes 7.Armee had the following formations in Rennes on 1 July 1944 Krgs.Laz.Abt.(mot) 612: Krgs.Laz. 4/614 (Rennes) 1509 beds Kr.Trsp.Abt.571: 1.Kp/Kr.Trsp.Abt.571 (Rennes) Kr.S.Stelle (Rennes) San.-Park 4/561: Zweigstelle (Rennes) Chem.U.-Stelle (Rennes) Prosektur (Rennes)
In case you are interested, I've found several references to the black POWs of Stalag Rennes. 4 April: One of the more interesting is a planned exchange of POWs of a supply formation. Moroccan POWs were to be replaced by black POWs, because the former were considered to be unreliable. 2 and 22 May: Another discussion is about what should happened to them in case of an invasion and they could not be transported away. To prepare for that they should be formed into a battalion already, which could be assigned to 7.Armee in case of the invasion (or literally 'Kampffall') 12 June: Another interesting reference is made about the trucks used to transport POWs to Rennes. The trucks from southern France which were used to bring GvB to Normandy should bring POWs to Rennes as they returned to southern France. BTW, annoyingly all references are made as 'Stalag Rennes', no number is ever mentioned. Major Krüger is mentioned by name quite frequently and identified as 'Kommandant Stalag Rennes'.
Guys, Is there any reference to numbers being painted on the roofs of these locations? This might be nothing, but I was able to zoom the downloaded 1947 IGN cover a bit more than I expected last night and got this excellent definition on the school(?) courtyard: Note again the two dormer windows, #1 and #7, for reference. Now take a look at what appears to be a digit '3' painted on the lean-to roof at the northern side of the yard (top of extract is west). If it is a numeral '3' and not a roof feature (I can see no shadow), then it could well be a German marking from three years previous. I also note with interest what appears to be a shadow, arrowed blue, of a pole with what looks like a small cross member near the top, arrowed red. I think it's a very good match for the pole we see in the ground shot: The top red arrow above is indicating what I take to be the same small cross member, viewed at an acute angle. What the purpose of the pole was, I have no idea, but it looks to me like the PoWs may be confined to the western half of the yard by means of an invisible barbed wire fence running by the pole. Just a hunch I found this drawing of Saint Lo in 1944 and the yard, circled in red, is part of a larger complex to the north labelled 'Depot de Remonte' which Google tells me means 'Remount Depot' Anyone have a fuller explanation/translation please? Searching Google with the same phrase and adding 'Saint Lo', I was brought to this page on the Saint Lo Haras. If I am correct, the page states that the Haras moved from this site to the present day site in 1881. That, in 1944 would have been within living memory and may well explain why the site where the PoWs were kept in the town is called the 'Haras' in contemporary accounts. I also found the Bon Sauveur Hospital on the same drawing - circled green above. Still cannot locate the second ground photo on page 93 of "Utah Beach - Sainte Mere Eglise - Sainte Marie du Mont" by Georges Bernage and Dominique Francois. That's the one with the German officer waving his left arm at the PoWs who appear more interested in the food just dished out for this photo: I cannot get a match in the 'Old Haras' yard and it may not be the same location in any case. Regards, Pat
Neils, The black PWs were the French Colonials I was talking about. There apparently were some serving at the Hospital and others on day parole to work at farms around Rennes. The local population didn't want them around is my understanding and some clashes took place between the paroled and civilians in town. The French Colonial troops were called Tiraulleurs de Senegal irregardless of which country they were from. Morroccans, Senegalese, Congolese etc. were all kept in the Lazarette (which also has been interpreted as an isolation camp usually for the sick.) My using of split ids for the Camp de la Marne sketch is because their appears to have been two administrations in effect starting June 11 when the paratroop PWs started arriving. The Germans put up a dividing fence and the Colonials got much better food and Red Cross packages while the new Allied PWs barely got fed. The Colonials felt sorry for them and threw food and Red Cross packages over the fence when the Germans weren't looking. Other French Army PWs were kept in other nearby casernes but were sent to Germany right away. French political prisoners were kept in the prison on the south side of Rennes. Pat, the hospital at Rennes did not have any markings in a 12 June air photo but did have red crosses in a 23 July photo but no numbers.
In other German records I've seen, they also make references to 'Farbige' (colored) prisoners, which seems to refer to North-Africans (and probably included the Moroccans). The word used for the black prisoners is 'Negern'. On 19 May there apparently were at least 1300 'Negern' at Rennes. In the last days of June 450 'Negern' were sent to Rennes after they had been incorrectly sent from Bordeaux to Le Mans first. Have you found documents that show there really were two administrations? Putting up a fence and your stories sounds more indicative of two different regimes, rather than two administrations. The reason I'm asking about the 'Aussenstelle' is because I wonder if it does not refer to the entirety of the Rennes POW facilities. Bordeaux could be the Stalag 221 'base camp', Rennes as a whole their 'Aussenstelle'.... Also, have you found information on the unit Maj. Krüger belonged to? I'm guessing Stalag 221, but this might show how complicated the situation really was. Finally, you mention the numbers of wounded men rose significantly on 23 June. Was that an incident or kept high numbers arriving? If not, maybe the initial 'panic' subsided and no help from the 'Kriegslazerett' was required after all?
Hi All, Anyone seen the 8th photo down on this page before? I assume it was taken in Saint Lo - can anyone confirm location? Thanks, Pat
Niels, Here is some more stuff on the German designation of the camps found by my Freiburg researcher. Frontstalag 221 *Formed 17.07.40 in Wehrkreis XIII. Located in Bordeaux/Gironde to April 1941, moved to St-Medard/Gironde in May 1941 and then back to Bordeaux in 1943. In January 1944 its designation was changed to Frontstalag 221 S. POWs: French. Feldpost Nr.: 17427 A. FpN deleted 30.01.45. Frontstalag 221 W *Formed January 1944 in Rennes as a Zweiglager (ZL) of Frontstalag 221. POWs: French. Feldpost Nr.: 20275 A. FpN deleted 30.01.45. Primary Sources: BA-MA Freiburg, Signatur RH 49/1 thru RH 49/22, RW 6/450, 6/451, 6/452, 6/482, 6/483 and 6/484. I have an E&E from a PW fluent in German, French and English used as a translator at the hospital saying that Oberst Czesany was in charge as Commandant of Stalag 221 at Rennes not a Major Kruger. So maybe he was in charge of the Colonial but not the Allied PW since your reference seems to be related to the Colonials. I know we are wandering from the Normandy aspect that started this thread but I find it enlightening.
Keep it coming. I'm liking this thread more and more. Obscure part of WW2 history that is definitely worth exploring. Unless it has some specific other meaning, the literal translation of Zweiglager tells how the camp was regarded: "branch camp". Like a branch from a tree (Stalag 221 being the tree stem and Stalag Rennes one of the branches. The 'S' in Frontstalag 221 S could even mean "Stamm") As for Major Krüger, he is mentioned as "Kommandant des Stalag Rennes" on 8 April. Both the African (Black and Moroccans) are mentioned. But more importantly the possible future 'inflow' of new prisoners (Kampffalle) from AOK7 POW collection points is mentioned separately. On this last part Major Krüger is specifically called 'Kommandant des Stalag Rennes', so he was not just responsible for the Africans. I see no reason to doubt he was the commander of Stalag Rennes on that date. Which does not mean he was the commander of Stalag 221, nor that he remained in charge of Stalag Rennes and was there when the 'new' prisoners started to arrive. The Major is mentioned again on 2 May (not as commander but as being from Stalag Rennes). This time it is about the 'Negern'. This entry is inconclusive about his role at Stalag Rennes. 22 May is similar to the mentioning of 2 May. No names are mentioned after this. So it is possible Maj. Krüger was either replaced or the commander of the entire Stalag 221 took over because Stalag Rennes became the most important location of his formation.
Yes a definite possibility that Kruger was replaced by Czesany just as Stabsarzt Lumpp was replaced by Oberstabsarzt Enzinger at the hospital as the flow of PWs increased. It's a pity that the camp and hospital records were destroyed by the Germans prior to the liberation of Rennes. Maybe then we could have a clearer picture.
Hi All, This British Pathe clip shows a number of German camps with identities on screen as prisioners are freed at the end of the War. Seems to be British and Commonwealth PoWs only: http://www.britishpathe.com/video/men-out-of-cages Regards, Pat
Hi Guys, I found footage showing the entrance gate to 'Starvation Hill' at Tessy sur Vire in this YouTube upload. I have extracted three screenshots from the relevant section below: The pier and background 'small building' are unmistakeable. It looks like the four new prisoners are two paratroopers on the left and two aircrew(?) on the right. Two of the guards are wearing very dark toned or black, uniforms. I am not an expert but I wonder are they SS or tank men? Regards, Pat
Hi Folks, Looking through my newly acquired copy of Tyler Alberts '29th Infantry Division - Invasion of Normandy Series' DVD, I believe we may have some new footage of the POW compound in St Lo shot from the street on the eastern side between it and the cemetery. To set the scene, see below another extract from the very high quality IGN cover flown in 1947. The cemetery is across the street from the building with the dormer windows lettered D-G inclusive. The top of the extract is north: The footage shows a column of GIs moving south with some German POWs in train. There is at least two M10 Tank Destroyers stopped on the street and an M8 Greyhoud (I think) stopped at the POW compound entrance gate (lettered B-C): The camera pans left (southwards) and then picks up the rear of the column as it approaches the cross roads at the end of the street: I note with interest the very high wire mesh fence mounted on outward sloping poles along the outside wall of the building. There appears to be four insulators on the end post which might indicate that the fence had been electrified when the Allied POWs were being held there a few weeks before this footage was shot - or it might just be two telephone lines going into the building. The whole scene has changed today, with even the intact buildings now all removed so it is difficult to find any remaining ties in GE but I have little doubt of the footage location. As if to reinforce matters, the next scene shows GIs in the cemetery as they advance cautiously eastwards towards the Haras: Having now seen the curved windows in the POW building I note that they are similar to the ones in the Haras as seen in this old postcard: This very distinctive window architrave design is still there today in the Haras as can be seen from the GE street view below, looking eastwards from outside the SE corner of the cemetery: Note the alternating red and white design feature which clearly distinguishes the Haras from the POW compound building. I could be wrong, but I now suspect that this is the reason that many accounts state that the Allied POWs were held in the Haras. I now doubt this; believing that there was only one POW compound in the city. Regards, Pat
Hi All, I have been spending quite a bit of time trying to locate the second ground photo taken (supposedly) at the Saint Lo POW compound... ...and while I have nothing conclusive to add here, readers might be interested in some observations I have made over the past few nights. The POW compound seems to be the extent of what was then called the 'Depot de Remonte' which had a main building shown marked 'A' on the extract from the oblique NCAP_ACIU_US7GR_1733_S_0014 below: Image Credit: RCAHMS/www.ncap.org.uk The Église Sainte-Croix church is marked 'B' thereon and I found an interesting pre-war postcard showing the entrance gateway to the Depot de Remonte next to the eastern gable of the church (out of sight in frame S_0014): Note the pyramid shaped roof of the guard post at left with the round ornate stained glass window in the eastern gable of the church visible above it. This is the scene today from GE 'street view': I also found another old post card showing a view of the main building from inside the complex - note the guard house at extreme left: I am drawn to the small buildings adjoining the northern gable of the main building shown at extreme right above but there is just something missing to make the tie conclusive. I really like the look of these buildings in the screen grab from Tyler's 29th ID DVD below: Note the two gate stops in the 1944 still, one of which can be seen below the sentry's left hand in the old postcard. BTW, can any of you French guys give me a definition of 'Depot de Remonte' please? Google translates the word 'remonte' to remount, but is the meaning then to be taken as just a place where fresh horses were kept or is there more to this term? Despite the lack of a conclusive tie to the second ground photo, I did get some more of the footage to come home. Below is a still showing a greyhound armoured car passing the gateway, traveling east: Note the stained glass window of the church in between the two pier caps. A few yards to the east, another shot shows the burning Dodge 6x6 with the 57mm AT attached: It's very poor quality footage, but I note with interest a pile of rubble in the distance under the trees (circled red), but first a much better still shot showing the front of the Dodge: The barbed wire fence wrapped around the tree trunks is clearly visible in this still. It looks like this complex was planned and prepared to receive Allied POWs well in advance of the invasion. I could be wrong, but it looks like the bark of the trees has even begun to grow around the wire loops. Back to the pile of rubble. This is the collapsed bell tower of the Église Sainte-Croix church, shown square on in this extract: Most of the masonry has fallen into the church. This is the location where the body of Major Thomas D. Howie, CO 3/116th IR, 29th Division, was laid to rest after he was killed by mortar fire on the outskirts of the city on the 17th July - the same day this footage was shot! I am pretty sure Major Howie's body is not on the pile of rubble in this shot above...but most definitely is there under the Stars and Stripes in the extract from the same footage below: It looks to like the camera man stopped filming while the Major was being laid out on the rubble and then resumed shooting footage afterwards. Below is the famous still photograph that everyone knows: Despite not being able to tie down the second POW ground shot, the above ties are interesting in themselves. My thanks to Tyler again for granting permission to post these screenshots. Regards, Pat
Hello Pat, Once again, good work. Regarding "Depot de Remonte", a (French) friend confirmed it's an establishment charged with providing horses for the cavalry. Cheers for now, Sean
Thanks Sean, This makes sense with the two sentries outside the guard house in the old postcard and the 'Vieux Haras' just adjoining across the way behind the church. The photograph below was taken in 1962 just before the main building, seen here behind the guard house, was torn down: Apparently the only reason the guard house survived was that it was converted into a 'public convenience' during this period of reconstruction! Regards, Pat