Sorry if I've posted this in the wrong place. A chap I've been in touch with recently in the US posted the following on another forum and I wondered if anyone on here could shed any light on it. He has given me permission to reproduce his original post here : "A close friend was recently telling me how his father, of Swiss descent and fluent in German, landed in Normandy ahead of the invasion. My eyes opened wide and my ears perked up, because I knew he had at least been a Pathfinder, so I was anxious to hear all the about it. My friend, who is now in his 70s, went on to tell me that his dad was sent in to 'purify the water', so that the allied forces would have safe water to drink. I told him that I doubted that was his real mission, suggesting that he may have even been dressed as a German, since he spoke fluent German, and served a purpose a lot more involved and dangerous than purifying water. Dave's dad brought back a lot of relics that I'm dying to see, plus a diary. We are going to get together next summer and look at all his stuff, so I hope to post some pics and stories then. In the mean time, has anyone here heard of advance troops purifying water? It sounds like a cover story to me".
Hi Blainville50, I agree that the water purification story was a cover for the real mission. Do you have a location where this man was inserted (I presume by parachute)? There is one insertion which I know of onto DZ 'O' west of Sainte Mere Eglise. A guy named Ray Welty and two British Commandos were inserted by parachute a few days before D-day. I recall a lot of airborne resistance to the story because the stated objective was to mark DZ 'O' for the 505 PIR pathfinders - something which was deemed unfathomable at the time we had the thread on the old Battlebus Forum. Philippe Esvelin has the story in one of his glider books and even sent me a map extract showing the farmhouse where the group were sheltered. Another story, probably related, has the school teacher in Neuville au Plain being asked to translate for an injured 'paratrooper' a few days before the invasion. In any event, I look forward with interest to your unfolding story. Regards, Pat
hello Blainville50 I also look forward to anything you can come up with, as the water purification has to be a cover story as with over 160,000 men landing on D-Day over 5 beaches and about 50 miles that would mean a lot of water to be purified on the day, let alone purifying from D+2 onwards !! Any pathfinders around St. Mere Eglise were maybe dropped on the original schedule, which was put back 24 hours of course by the bad weather. But I personally find it unrealistic that a C47 carrying only 3 pathfinders was sent out, even in error, especially as two of them were British commandos (army or RM), and not parachute regiment pathfinders, who had their own role to play on D-Day on the British beachhead. regards Allan
Hi Allan, I don't know; a lot of these stories are shrouded in mystic and I suppose that very aspect serves to add fuel to the fire so to speak and they probably get better each time they are related Apparently, General 'Wild Bill' Donovan, head of the OSS landed at Utah Beach on D+1 to meet 'some agents' - see the 'Gen 'Wild Bill' Donovan at Utah Beach?' thread. In relation to the insertion near Sainte Mere Eglise, the term 'commando' may have been used loosely and probably just implied some form of security personnel for Welty. I tried posting on the Commando Veteran' forum at the time, seeking possible candidates but never got any more information. I do believe a group was inserted in the area, but the objective of the mission, to me at least, remains unclear. I done up a web page during the time we spent on the story which is still on my server here. Regards, Pat
Hello Pat Thanks for the interesting link about Drop Zone O - I find it hard to comprehend that they would have pre-marked the DZ's with an O.S.S.team before the pathfinders themselves landed. The way that the LZ's and DZ's were marked shortly before becoming operational was surely the way that things happened in Normandy. Imagine if the O.S.S. team had been captured, or the markings found, the Germans could have set-up flak traps to wipe out the pathfinders, and then the remainder of the paratroops as they came in. I know that the Market Garden drops were in daylight but film exists of one of the British drops (the second perhaps) being met by very heavy flak (of various calibres) with resultant heavy losses as the operational orders showing DZ's and LZ's for para and supply drops had been captured. With regard to anybody else being in the area before D-Day, I believe that they dropped as per plan, and with the confusion of the battlefield people later thought that the people they met had dropped before D-Day and not during, or after. The best bet in my opinion for the three men would be a Jedburgh team, as they were composed of three men - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Jedburgh - where it states that the first drop was near to Chateauroux the night before D-Day, but of course that was nowhere near to Normandy, let alone St. Mere Eglise! my thoughts on the matter anyway. regards Allan
Hi Allan, Below is the Ray Welty story from pages 79 and 81 of Philippe's 'D-Day Gliders': I also found a pdf in my 'Philippe Esvelin' folder which someone sent me back in 2009 giving a list of insertions. It's probably incomplete, but below is an extract for the period around early June 1944: Anyone know know what the term 'IAM Team' means in the 5th June entry? Digging further in the same folder, the late Tom Ensminger, then the curator of a huge repository of files on the The 801st / 492nd Bomb Group ('The Carpetbaggers'), sent me the debriefing report for a mission flown to France by a Carpetbagger crew on the night of 1st/2nd June 1944. As far as I can recall, it was just an example of what Tom had in his collection and is not directly related to the Ray Welty group: IIRC, I posted the above image on the old Battlebus Forum with a view to establishing the meanings and/or handwriting marked in red. If anyone here wants to have a go feel free One of the last posts Tom put up on the OSS Society Discussion Group was this message giving access to his data on an FTP server: I removed the user name and password above but if anyone wants it, please send me a PM. Regards, Pat
Hi Folks, This thread will be moved over the next day or so to: Research Currently Underway/Clandestine/Special Forces/American Regards, Pat
Hello Pat Interesting - to say the least - however, we are expected to believe that a person who had trained as a glider pilot was selected for a parachute drop, but no mention of para. training, other than his three civilian drops - but no mention of military training or award of his para wings, but it clearly mentions the award of his glider wings - also he joins the glider programme in 1942, but doesn't get his glider wings until February 1944 (you could train a pilot to operate a powered aircraft in less time)? We are also supposed to believe that a mere 2/Lt would be sent over from the US specifically for this mission, when surely plenty of 2/Lt's with more experience were twiddling their thumbs in the UK already waiting for D-Day to come along! Especially as his specialist skill for this mission was the ability to throw a knife accurately!! Also, it states "The two Americans and the two British Commandos were spotted....killing the three Britons...." - so that simple sentence is inaccurate, which casts doubts on the rest of it!! They were sent to mark DZ "O", and he gave his beacon to the paratroopers to mark LZ "W", and then due to circumstances it was used on LZ "O", presumably it was simple to adjust the identity signal in the field - he was then sent back to the US to continue his tactical training (what a waste of his obvious talent)!! Invasion markings were removed from the upper surfaces in late June / early July (officially 6 July 1944), so they were removed almost two months before Market Garden took place, let alone was planned, as you know we were not anywhere near to breakout still being tied up with the Caen battles and nowhere near to Operation Cobra for the US side!! In the list of drops, although it does not list the country the troops started from, I can only presume that those made on Poland were from Italy, as come the Warsaw battle in August 1944 we had to use Liberators to drop supplies from Italy as it was too far from the UK. Note also, the two spellings of Chateauroux for Operations Hugh and Bulbasket on 6 June, again a cause for concern if they cannot get that right! Walter and Mitty spring to mind - but I am keeping an open mind at present!! regards Allan
Hello Pat Interesting - to say the least - however, we are expected to believe that a person who had trained as a glider pilot was selected for a parachute drop, but no mention of para. training, other than his three civilian drops - but no mention of military training or award of his para wings, but it clearly mentions the award of his glider wings - also he joins the glider programme in 1942, but doesn't get his glider wings until February 1944 (you could train a pilot to operate a powered aircraft in less time)? We are also supposed to believe that a mere 2/Lt would be sent over from the US specifically for this mission, when surely plenty of 2/Lt's with more experience were twiddling their thumbs in the UK already waiting for D-Day to come along! Especially as his specialist skill for this mission was the ability to throw a knife accurately!! Also, it states "The two Americans and the two British Commandos were spotted....killing the three Britons...." - so that simple sentence is inaccurate, which casts doubts on the rest of it!! They were sent to mark DZ "O", and he gave his beacon to the paratroopers to mark LZ "W", and then due to circumstances it was used on LZ "O", presumably it was simple to adjust the identity signal in the field - he was then sent back to the US to continue his tactical training (what a waste of his obvious talent)!! Invasion markings were removed from the upper surfaces in late June / early July (officially 6 July 1944), so they were removed almost two months before Market Garden took place, let alone was planned, as you know we were not anywhere near to breakout still being tied up with the Caen battles and nowhere near to Operation Cobra for the US side!! In the list of drops, although it does not list the country the troops started from, I can only presume that those made on Poland were from Italy, as come the Warsaw battle in August 1944 we had to use Liberators to drop supplies from Italy as it was too far from the UK. Note also, the two spellings of Chateauroux for Operations Hugh and Bulbasket on 6 June, again a cause for concern if they cannot get that right! Walter and Mitty spring to mind - but I am keeping an open mind at present!! regards Allan
Good points Allan, Being a glider pilot, I had wondered back in 2009 if Ray Welty had something to do with guiding the gliders onto LZ 'O', but again I have never found any reference to such activity elsewhere. On a broader scale, apart from the V weapon sites on the Cotentin, I do not know why the OSS would be involved in the initial American airborne assault. There is reference somewhere to an underground communications cable running through Sainte Mere Eglise up to Cherbourg. It was to be switched off at a joint box (but not damaged) by the 3rd Battalion, 505th PIR. Hardly a very technical job though Regards, Pat
Hello Pat I am not familiar with the exact locations of the US drop and landing zones - Were LZ "O" and DZ "O" in roughly the same area? He was dropped to initially mark DZ "O", and then at daybreak his kit was used to attempt to mark LZ "W" and then was used to mark LZ "O", would that have been feasible in the time left after his own drop. As he gave up his kit "at daybreak" I would have expected that by daybreak LZ "O" would have received its initial glider load, and then would have been obvious to any further glider landings by the first wave gliders being in-situ there and would not need any further marking? Personally I would have thought that the underground communications cable needing to be switched off, but not damaged, was a perfectly valid job for a man with his knife throwing ability, and using 3/505 PIR was overkill. regards Allan
Hello I have near heard a so hazardous story than this one and never got an answer to my question : who was the source? There are also many errors in the story.. the type of lamps (never a Aldis lamp), the time schedule ("..the leading parachute elements took off at 0021..." and were dropped in Normandy less than 30 minutes later????? pffff) They were ordered to go to DZ "O" before midnight??? 82nd Pathfinders were to be dropped at 0121 ! they waited 1 hour and 30 minutes on the DZ??? Stupid and dangerous! The main body dropped instead of pathfinders...... He was not on DZ "O"??? because if there is a DZ where the pathfinders drop was accurate it's DZ "O" and if it was the main body which was dropped, it was 0151 and they have waited around 2 hours on a DZ with their beacons?? Now I would like an answer to the main question : Which was the interest to mark a DZ for Pathfinders????? No, really, for me this story is ....... a story!
Since Pat just pointed out the thread again, I do wonder about something. Bare with me: I've not reread the thread. Is it possible 'purifying water' was just a figure of speech? Like 'testing the water'. German's would muddy the situation, so 'purifying' the water would get a certain ring to it....
Could be just that Niels, However, I suspect its just a cover story to explain the preparations and flight of the real mission...whatever that was Regards, Pat
Maybe the expression was the base of the cover story.... especially because it's such a lame cover. ;-)
Hello Bainville50 You would probably be interested by my last thread " joint mission 82nd AB/FFFR" in the chapter "Airborne forces". I am researching for clues proving that French paratroopers belonging to OSS, BCRA, or whatever it might be, have jumped before the D-Day in Normandy. That's why I would like to know if you met with your Swiss friend, and if you have some more details to be given? Thank you J.B
I’m interested to see this thread as I have heard (only in the questions of curious members) that there was a mere rumour of forces dropping into drop zones prior to the Pathfinders... Anyway, I think the above account, contextually speaking, suffers from bad research. We’ve put some time into this - and understand that the pathfinder teams got into DZ ‘O’ 5 mins ahead of schedule at 0115 - they set up their Eureka Beacons on time and on location with no problems or interruptions and then marked the field with lanterns in a ‘T’ shape as described above. However, we understand that the lanterns were only switched on once the aircraft were heard approaching, and only one lantern at the base of the ‘T’ was colour coded (green for DZ ‘O’). The rest were open white colour. The types of lantern used are the subject of debate. Airborne doctrine at the time said it was the Holophane lamp on tripods, not Aldis lamps, however we can find no evidence that these were used at all - the tripod in the bag was cumbersome to say the least. We understand the lanterns used were like the photo attached. Set up in a large ‘T’ with the Eureka at the base. I hope this helps a little?
Hello Just one question... If only one light was colored and the six other white. How can you, in flight, determine which is the good DZ for you? You will see only white lamps... not the colored one. All the lamps were colored. green for DZ "O", amber for DZ "N" etc etc The first lamp was coded. It means by flashing the letter of the DZ in morse code. I don't see a photo attached. If I understand well you say that the TOE contain the Holophane light and tripod but, as you cann't find a evidence of their use (which kind of evidence?), you say that aldis lamps were used... You have an evidence of that? PS : The eureka beacon is a the top of the "T"
The coloured lanterns were at the base of the ‘T’ the closest to the cockpit of incoming aircraft. This was derived from Lt Col. Vandervoort’s description of events. The Eureka, we have found different sources showing different positions - some say top, most say base, before the coloured lamp.